Five Good Ideas on positive change in uncertain times

This transcript has been edited lightly for clarity. Elizabeth McIsaac: Division can feel like the order of the day, like there’s more driving people apart than bringing them together. New fault lines appear and old ones widen and deepen. And in response, we’ve become more fragmented and too comfortable within our own groups that share our opinions and beliefs. This is a dangerous tendency. Echo chambers and bubbles can increase division by hardening and thickening the lines that separate groups and even lead to extremism. So while cherishing and valuing different opinions and beliefs, we need to talk to each other, stand by each other, connect to make relationships across groups and ideological spectrums. There is nobody better than Mohammed Hashim to give us some practical advice on this topic. He’s the Chief Executive Officer and executive director of the Canadian Race Relations Foundation. He also leads the National Hate Crimes Task Force with the RCMP. So welcome, Mohammed. Mohammed Hashim: Thank you for having me. Elizabeth McIsaac: We started talking about this I think last December, and we thought, “This would be a good idea of a topic. It’s becoming really part of what we’re all wrestling with.” And honestly, I think in the last two months it has just accelerated to a point of people feeling urgent and anxious even about it all. And so thank you for agreeing to do this with us today. Let’s get started. Let’s jump in. As we turn our attention to the current context and our own practices and how we connect, how can we create more room and more appetite for meaningful conversations between people in groups and with those whose views are so opposed that they no longer even want to be in the same room? How do we break down that divide? Mohammed Hashim: Well, thank you. And just before I begin, I also just want to acknowledge that I’m also speaking to you from the land of many nations, but traditionally the Anishinaabe, the Haudenosaunee, the Huron-Wendat, the Chippewas, the Ojibwes, and most recently the Mississaugas of the Credit First Nation. I also just want to acknowledge some board members in the room here. So Sophia Ali, thank you so much for coming out and I see some of our staff here as well, so thanks to them. And I see actually a lot of all United Way colleagues from that world, so it’s nice to see your names pop up over here. Look, right now the fog is extremely heavy. The world is going through a time when we are being bombarded by shock, where people of principle are looking at this moment to say, “Hold on a second, how do we react to what is being thrown at us?” And think of it as a way to say, “Okay, here we just need to hunker down to make sure that we figure out to not let it impact us too hard.” But with the volume and the sheer aggression of stuff coming at all of us, it’s discombobulating. And I think for many of us, we feel like this is a time when our own sense of sensibility is being contracted and that it’s just not clear how to get ahead. So if you were here to get answers on how to get ahead through all of that, I am going to disappoint you because I’m in a similar place to you. But I do have some tactics that I think are working for us that I want to share with you as well. We always talk about embracing difficult conversations where we know people are coming at things from different places. We know the realities that I live are not the realities of other people, and that typically we assume that people should know or should have at least a keen awareness of, and if they don’t know, then that’s their problem. And it’s not my job to educate them. And it’s true, it’s not. You’re right. I don’t think that’s an unfair expectation. But I do think that in a time when we’re dealing with such degree of polarization where our mindsets have been curated, not necessarily by what is true, but by the feeds that we’ve absorbed through our social media. That speak to the deepest fears we have. That keep us online. The deepest passions that we have and that which moves our hearts and minds the most. So we’re in a polarized state, not because of anything other than the fact that our perception of reality has been curated through social media to a vast degree, and we’re reacting to that. Knowing that is a necessity but also knowing how to react against that is a necessity. Because the motivations for why we’re kept online is obviously for organizations to make profits. And we saw all four of the big tech oligarchs standing next to Trump in that inauguration, and it was a very clear indicator of how we got to where we are now. And I think that that’s to their advantage. It was politically done to make sure that that was the case. And as soon as you saw Trump come in, all the different social media organizations are like, “Well, we’re just taking off the filters off everything, let it be free rein. Because we know that what gets people moving and accelerating in this space is anger and fear, and we’re just going to let it feed unfettered.” Now, knowing that is what our neighbours are absorbing, how do you engage with them? So I have a neighbour who is into Rebel News who found articles about Rebel News attacking me and said, “Is this you?” And I’m like, “Yes, yes it is.” And he is like, “Well, that’s not how I saw you.” But I’m like, “Yeah, that’s how people are portraying me.” And I think that he was a COVID denier, anti-vaxxer, couldn’t even go to his father-in-law’s funeral because he wouldn’t take a vaccine. So he feels begrudged by the world for having to impose on him things that he didn’t believe in. In terms of deep conspiracy theorists and whatnot, that’s my next door neighbour. But we also have a great friendship as human beings. Sometimes I’ll shovel his driveway; he shovels my driveway. Our acts of kindness towards each other open up space where we can have different conversations. Going into a conversation with somebody like that, oftentimes it’s like, “Well, I don’t want to deal with your nonsense. I know you’re going to throw some conspiracy theories at me. I’m going to have to hear it and I’m going to have to hear it through.” I’m like, “Oh my God, this is so exhausting and problematic.” Which is all true. But I think that beyond that, once people feel a human connection to each other, there’s a sense of loyalty that’s created. Imposing litmus tests of loyalty onto people is super problematic. So this happens in our work all the time: “It’s not my job to educate you. You go learn what you need to learn. It’s a problem that you have to deal with because these are historical issues that you should have been more aware of.” And we typically hold that litmus test of loyalty to people of other races. And I mean, this is not just one against the other. Not knowing or hearing or understanding where other people see you if you are from a different race is just not an understanding. And we put up this litmus test of loyalty to say, “If you’re going to come, come correct as an ally or don’t come at all.” I find that approach honestly distasteful because anytime somebody has come to me with a litmus test of loyalty to say, “Hey, if you’re going to be in this room, you got to show allegiance to the room,” I’ve always found that just an imposition, disrespectful. Putting that upon anybody is problematic. So ensuring that you’re taking off the barriers for difficult conversations in advance to having those conversations is important because otherwise you can’t lean into the way people are actually hearing and seeing the world in order to talk to them. Elizabeth McIsaac: Well, and to understand where they’re coming from, we have to get back to where are you, how did you get there, and how do we build some kind of a connection? And you can’t do that if the conversation’s been shut down or if you have a wall that is a stereotype. Mohammed Hashim: And just to add to that, I think that because we put out these litmus tests of loyalty, we assume that having a conversation with somebody is going to be a challenge. I’ll give you a very quick example. Not last week, but the week before that, I think, I was talking to one of the most senior police people in the country. And I’m like, “Hey, so we’re seeing all this anti-DEI stuff that’s happening.” And he’s like, “Well, no, that’s just happening in the States.” “Hold on a second here. You tell me the Black guy that just got the promotion is not having to look over his shoulder because somebody else who didn’t get the promotion’s looking to knock him down because they think that that person got the job because of some DEI policy, even if they had fully merited to be able to get so?” “Well, yeah, yeah, that’s true.” “Look, you’re a leader in this organization. You need to protect what is right and what you’ve been doing in a very, very, very difficult and problematic organization. And so you need to put out a message to say, ‘We are standing by this.’ In a time when people are feeling like their threats are real.” “Yep, you’re right. It’s the right thing to do. We’ll do it.” If I wouldn’t have asked him he wouldn’t have done it. But I think that going into the conversation, assuming that he wants to protect the right things versus acting like maybe he does not want to or that it’s a question of whether he wants to lean into it, but if you extend people the grace to say, “Hey…” I don’t go up to any person, whether they’re white, Black or whatever they are, or Brown or Asian or whoever or Indigenous to say, “Hey, I got to suss this person out before I can have a conversation of whether or not we’re going to move on this.” I just go in there and say, “Hey, we’re moving on this together, right?” “Yeah.” “Okay, good. Let’s go. This is what I need you to do. This is what I’m going to do. This is how we’re going to play the meeting. Yeah?” “Good.” “Okay, let’s go.” Then if they can’t roll with it and they don’t want to roll with it, then they’re like, “Nah, I don’t want to do that.” But I’d say 99% of the time when you give people the sense of trust, they actually go double down and support. Elizabeth McIsaac: Hear where they’re coming from and then bring them back to where you have that common ground. So have the difficult conversations. It’s called work because it’s not easy. There might be some hardness to it, but that’s part of what we need to do. You talked about — and I heard you didn’t use these words — but the distortions of social media. So we are caught up in it, we’re stuck in it. It’s part of what feeds us. If I scroll too much, it’s emotional. You just get weighed down by it. So your second good idea is get offline and talk. You say reignite in person. So that’s part of what you’re talking about, just face people. I saw a new article in the Philanthropist, which was “Get Offline and Talk.” And so I think this is the wave that we need to look at. Can we just get offline and talk and how do we practically move that into our practice? Mohammed Hashim: It’s absolutely necessary. There’s no substitute for talking face-to-face. I think we’ve all become accustomed to online spaces that we had to curate. I spend more time on Zoom than I do in real life with human beings. But we all know that looking at somebody and talking to them face-to-face, even with the most difficult conversations, will always lead to better outcomes. Back in 2018, the Toronto Sun did a hit piece on me, and the author of that hit piece wrote horrible things about me. And for some crazy coincidence, I ran into them at a conference. So I go up to them and I’m like, “Hi, I’m Mohammed Hashim. You have caused me harm. This is maybe not the best way to have this conversation, but we’re here in the hallway and I thought I would just let you know. I’ve gotten death threats because of you. My workplace had to add security because of you. We had to create locks in our doors because of you and the amount of stuff that we were getting and people mailing to me. So for what? For something that you implied, which isn’t true?” And he’s like, “Well, what happens to consequences of what I write and what other people do with it is not my responsibility.” “Actually it is. You’re the one who pointed at me the way you did, which wouldn’t have been the case had you not.” “Well, this, that.” “Look, if you want to have a harder conversation or a longer conversation about this, I’d welcome it.” So then he reached out to me and he scheduled a lunch. So we went out for lunch and it was just a straight dumping, not a drunk dumping, but it was an honest conversation of where things are at. We still don’t agree politically on 95% of the things in this world, but there was a degree of respect that was created that actually created protection for me. So whenever other Toronto Sun articles were about to come out against me, he’d be the one that say, “Ah, we’re not running that.” He would take down things because he is like, “Yeah, this is not an accurate description of where things are actually at, so let’s not do that.” So you never know. And I’m not saying the person has become holy by any means. Definitely not the case. But I think that engaging people face-to-face, having difficult conversations is important. But also you got to disconnect. Over the last year and a half, the images that all of us have seen on our social media are horrific, are soul drenching. Many people, when we talk to youth in particular, their sense of abandonment to the value of human life is so deep that they feel lost, that no system is ever going to support them, nor is it a value to maintain because the system, the way they are, are so blind or don’t care or complacent or whatever it might be. And denying people the right to life, that, “What is it worth even engaging in this conversation?” We’re at a time when that generation needs to hear, but we also need to hear from each other, about what are the things that we have to hold onto? What are the principles that we can engage on? What are the basic human rights that are undeniable? What are the fault lines by which you can say what is right and what is wrong and what is clear. But getting offline and doing that in person is so critically important because if you don’t do it, you literally can’t re-nourish your soul. Elizabeth McIsaac: It’s true. So much of our current reality, however, is online. So 100%, where we’re able to, disconnect and connect person-to-person. And I think about your story of the Toronto Sun. You’re never going to agree and you’re allowed to have different political ideas, but there’s respect. And so it’s about setting that up. Maybe we can look forward to a post-social media world. I don’t know. Who knows what’s next. But in the meantime, we’re there. It’s a vehicle for so much, it’s a mechanism for so much. How do we navigate it? How do we do it so that we’re not traumatized? I think you’re just talking about how young people are feeling disaffected by it, traumatized even by it. How do we navigate it so that we’re not put in that place? Mohammed Hashim: Well, I don’t know if we can navigate it so much as try to just manage it, manage the intake. I think that managing the intake, being aware of how much you’re intaking and how much that’s impacting you is critically important. And if you can’t handle it, you should definitely check out of it. I couldn’t handle TikTok anymore and thank God the government told me to delete it from my phone. So that was my good excuse to not to look at that ever again. But it was definitely difficult to do so. But also I actually know from the left and from the right that not everything online is true, that you really have to fact-check what is true. You have to rely on news sources that are fact-checked, that are unbiased, which is really a big task these days. But you have to be able to do your own due diligence to some degree to figure out what is real and what’s not. We’re actually entering into the AI environment where you can put a picture of a politician in whatever costume, in whatever scenario and make a video of it like it’s completely real and that can get out there and fly to millions of phones within an hour, within half an hour. So the reality is that we’re now getting into a space where that needs to happen more frequently. And to be honest, our governments have failed to manage the online spaces. We have tons of rules of how the town square should be managed. What is hate speech? What is not hate speech? What is enforceable? What is not enforceable? Who gets to use this space? Who doesn’t get to use this space? How loud can the speakers can be? What time the speakers need to be turned off, all of those different things. When does a fire alarm need to be pulled or not? But in the online space, which is where we all live, there’s zero of that. And I think the governments have really failed us in terms of being able to create some degree of base level safety. It’s like driving a car at 350 kilometers an hour with no seat belts. So we have to use ways that we can fact-check things ourselves, ensure that we’re well-informed and that what we take online is managed in a way that we can chew what we eat because if not, we’re just going to get overloaded by things that are going to just cripple us. Elizabeth McIsaac: And I think that’s a good way of putting it because I think we are overwhelmed. There’s so much to process, to distill, to make sense of, and it’s hard to keep up. It’s hard to make sense of. And many people just feel that everything’s quite surreal right now in terms of what’s coming at us. You add the AI dimension to it and the sense of what’s true is… I mean, it was what, 10, 15 years ago we began talking about a post-truth society. Well, this is beyond what any of us imagined. So it does take management, it takes figuring out how to take control of that and then how do we look out for our well-being and finding that, I think you’re calling it the dopamine. Where do we get the dopamine? Mohammed Hashim: You release your dopamine and your feed with people who build for better. Look, actually this is going to sound absolutely insane, but the fogginess is typically crippling. I’m excited by the possibility of it, which is during COVID, at the beginning of COVID, no one ever thought we would get free transit or no one ever thought we would hold off on property tax collection or whatever it might be. Just giving people a break in ways that we never thought were even possible, but they weren’t because the crisis created such and the world is walking into a crisis in this moment right now. We have two options. One is we get consumed in the darkness or we find our tribes. And we got to find good people who are going to build on basis. And I could guarantee you the traditional tribe is not the tribe that we need to recreate. Somebody asked me to sign onto a letter by prominent Canadians a little while ago, and I’m like, “What is the letter going to do, bro? It’s just the same old letter that we’ve done again and again and again.” No, we got to find different people. We got to engage conversations that are harder, that are creating new tribes. The left-right divide is no longer traditional. It is no longer traditional. The rich-poor divide is also not 100% traditional either, although corporate interests and whatnot, they’ve always had their dominion and power never cedes power willingly. So therefore power has to cede through a demand. I’m butchering a Frederick Douglass quote, but it is true. We just got to figure out who is moving things positively, who are the people we can work alongside and how do we actually build to win? If resistance is the win right now, then take the resistance as the win. If survival is the win right now, survival is the win. But if there’s policy change, that’s the win right now. Let’s take that policy change and move it. And we just got to identify the wins that we can have. And I’m not asking none of y’all to be martyrs in the workplace by saying this or that, but you need to figure out what are achievable wins for you in the spaces that you’re at and fight for them and find people that are going to back you in it, because that’s the only way we’re going to create momentum for positive change versus being consumed in the darkness and not going anywhere. Elizabeth McIsaac: So if we don’t like it, we’ve got to fix it. And I like to find your tribe and then we actually have to get to work. And do you have examples of what that can look like? Mohammed Hashim: There’s honestly so much opportunity. There’s a pushback against DEI. Great, let’s push back against that pushback. Let’s say, “Hey, when you said this was an economic imperative for you to do this work because you needed to reach new audiences or different audiences, did the audiences change? Nah, they didn’t. Your perspective changed because it ain’t hot.” We need to just actively resist things that are problematic. We’ve made significant inroads on gender equality, on 2SLGTBQIA rights, on trans rights on racial discrimination. All of that right now is being thrown in our faces to say, we’ve gone too far. Well, I’m sorry. I disagree. I think we haven’t gone far enough. We’ve got to figure out who’s going to work with us to get there. And if that’s small wins I will be here. Let’s celebrate those small wins. If there’s big wins over there, let’s celebrate those big wins too. And I think it’s important for us to do that. And to be honest, I know it’s hard right now when so much… and the volume and the aggression is so high that to be frank, sometimes I just want to hide underneath my desk like many of you do. But I actually am excited because I also think that on the other side of this, is a world with not the same rules as we used to have before because it has not worked for all of us, but a world that can have significantly greater impact for many more people than it did before. And if we don’t hold onto that belief, we’re screwed and we’re just going to be going along with the show to say, “Here’s how things are.” So Donald Trump has been a nightmare, but also a galvanizing force. The one thing that I know for a fact is that the haters always burn out because they can’t get along with each other, so they always eat each other sooner than later. And I don’t know how many people from this cabinet are going to be here in three months because they’re going to eat each other. And as that happens, the opportunities will arise for us to resist and do more. And I think that we just have to be notoriously opportunistic to find those moments and utilize them. Elizabeth McIsaac: We asked people in advance for some questions as well. So I’m literally looking at about six pages of questions plus what’s coming in the Q&A box. I’m going to do my best to get to some of the main themes, because we could probably do this for three days and not run out of questions. As we look at Canada, I mean we’re all focused on the US right now because it’s such a spectacle in terms of what they’re doing, but it’s also extremely naive to think it’s not here. It’s not part of what’s going on here. And there’s a lot of communities concerned, whether it’s LGBTQ2S, whether it is people with disabilities, there’s groups that are feeling extremely vulnerable. The erasure of EDI as a given value, it feels highly threatening. What is your alarm level around this in Canada and what do the wins look like? So I hear what you’re saying, take the small wins, take them where they are and see that as resistance, resilience, what have you. But can you talk a little bit about that threat level that we’re at and how we should be responding? Mohammed Hashim: It’s high. I think that for years and years and years and years and years, people have framed DEI as some kind of advantage-for-people-who-are-not-like-me conversation versus creating a greater sense of equity and systems. That has settled into the minds of many, but there’s resentment attached to that too, which is actually the deeper hurt of it. People change perspectives when their expectations are unmet. So when you are expecting to go into something and someone says, “Nah, you’re not going to get that.” You feel hurt, you feel lost, you feel screwed over, all of those different things. And then now you can blame airline crashes to forest fires to whatever on DEI. And some people are going to be like, “Absolutely. That was just a DEI hire.” Which is insane. But I think pointing out the insanity is very important. But also I think that look, and I hate the term resilience and, “Oh, you’re so resilient.” Oh, please. Elizabeth McIsaac: Nobody wants to be resilient, quite frankly. Mohammed Hashim: No. It’s like, “Come now, so you want me to just put up with crap and feel great that I survived it. Thank you. Thank you so much for that.” So I dislike that type of thing, but I do think that the amount of crap that is about to come our way is going to be high. So we have to be able to put up our bodyguard, our armor now to withstand some of that. But the threats are real. And for some people it’s an opportunity. For some people, it’s an opportunity to do harm. For some people, it’s just a willingness to say, “Okay, I’ve had enough of this. I got to go back to basics for corporate environment, and I hate talking about stuff that I don’t really know about.” And for some people it’s going to be like, “Okay, this is a loss because I saw the good in it.” And I think that making sure that we are collaborating, talking to people, and engaging people who feel that and speaking about it is critically important. And you have to just find opportunities to create space. Elizabeth McIsaac: You mentioned the impact on youth in particular over the last 18 months and the effect it has had. And I think that the broader thing that we’re going through right now is affecting youth, and there’s a couple of questions around, what do we do about that? Is there a way to think about the public education system as being a serious player in preparing them, protecting them, engaging them, directing them? How do we think about engaging youth and trying to help them navigate this? Our last five good ideas actually did a very specific deep dive on youth, but I think some of what you’re talking about is more in the immediacy and the urgency of what we’re in. Mohammed Hashim: I’ll give you a practical example. Back in 2015, I was doing a lot of media work around Islamophobia, and this auntie comes to me. I think she was extremely wise. And she said, “Look, I know why you’re doing what you’re doing, which is highlighting Islamophobia and violence against the Muslim community that’s all over the place right now. And that it’s important for us to highlight that so that you can create political impetus to address it. But the kids that I teach are now afraid to go out. There is a double-edged sword to how you project trauma.” Particularly for kids, anybody who’s a parent knows that if you raise your voice in a funny way, they’ll eat it one way. But if you raise your voice in an angry way, the kids will take it very differently. And as parents, you have to constantly just watch your tone to ensure that you’re enunciating a sense of protection for your kids, for them to never lose that trust. I think the public education system has done a lot, and I think that it needs to do more. It is the most serious player in terms of changing mindsets around rights for 2SLGBTQ folks and understanding on reconciliation. These are things that never came into my school world. I still remember the first day of my high school where the teachers complained they couldn’t smoke in the classrooms anymore. It is the only system that has long-term impacts in terms of societal understandings. And the kids are seeing this moment now and are saying, “WTF?” What is happening is insane because all of what they’ve learned is now being thrown out the window. And to be frank, they’re going to come up with ways to fight that are different from the ways that I had to fight. I’m a product of, my fighting came after 9/11. My fighting came from unions. I’m a union organizer by training. My fighting comes from grassroots mobilization in a way that was for big rallies and for placards. But that’s not the reality of how people are organizing now. And I think that for us folks who’ve been around the block, I think our job is sometimes to ensure we give as much political and legal cover to generations coming up and getting out of their way. Elizabeth McIsaac: One of the consequences of the 51st state narrative is that there has been a swelling of patriotism in Canada. We’re all rallying around the flag. Are there unintended consequences of that? Do you foresee that as having an ill effect in any way or what are the effects of that? Mohammed Hashim: I was talking to a friend of mine back in 2021. She works at Canadian Heritage and her husband has a flagpole outside of their house. So he literally goes outside the house and puts it at half-mast when Canadian Heritage says, “Put it at half-mast.” And this is the year right after Kamloops. And I said, “Are you flying that this year? What’s going on? Where’s your husband at this year?” And she’s like, “No, he’s still out there. It’s Canada Day, so he is going to fly it the way he is.” And I felt like, I don’t know if I’m down with that right now because I think that sometimes recognition of the state… our state is an evolving project; I think recognizing it as such is important. I think the reality of today is not the reality of tomorrow. I think that reality is constructed by people who fight for that reality to be true. And therefore, right now with the surge of patriotism, that could turn into more anti-immigrant stuff. Yes, very quickly. It’s already there. We’ve closed our doors to tens of thousands of international students who are now screwed over and universities are laying off thousands of people and colleges are laying off thousands of people because, they created systems for our immigration system to be able to welcome people, and now those doors are closed. So the threat is absolutely real. We have to bring the conversation back to our core values of us being an open and diverse and welcoming society, both economically but also in reality. And it’s not just for bringing in immigrants because we need them to work in jobs that none of us want to work in, which is typically how we frame it to be. But, we need to… But the contributions that people bring are not anti-Canadian, because that’s how people are. I was seeing all these ridiculous TikTok things about how Indian folks are pooing on the beach, which is all untrue, which is all untrue. It was even… Our premier even repeated to say, there’s this that’s happening, which was also untrue. So that stuff is definitely fuming. It’s in the air and we have to be able to just identify what it is and speak where we can against it. Elizabeth McIsaac: I like a couple of your threads in there around… And going back a little bit when there’s a fogginess around something, that’s the opportunity to claim it and define it and to rely on the core values that we want to bring back to it. And one of the other things that I heard in the last little while is the people feeling comfortable with the Canadian flag again after the convoy. And so maybe it’s actually an opportunity rather than a threat. But again, it’s one of these unknowns, what will this mean? And I think there’s that alarm system in your head of let’s be attentive to that to make sure it doesn’t go one way versus the other. And let’s guard it with what we know to be Canadian values. Mohammed Hashim: Look, I mean, I’ve seen the ugliest nature of racism across this country in every corner. I’ve literally seen bloody carpets and bullet holes, and I’ve seen how indigenous communities are living in reserves up north. I’ve seen what this country has done. And though I recognize the reality and the consequences of what that is, I see that not as simply a mark on our past, but a responsibility to fix. And there’s no place in this world that I would rather be than here and a place where I can uphold the Charter or I can uphold our civil liberties and be able to say, “These are issues that we need to fight for.” And whichever way we can, look, I run a federal Crown corporation, so the space for me to go out there and go ham on this stuff is mildly mitigated compared to where I was previously, where it was full out. So I think that look, you got to figure out the spaces that you’re in and be the most effective that you can and where you’re at. Elizabeth McIsaac: I also, just going back to a much earlier comment in this, Canada is a work in progress. And so, I like: “It’s our responsibility to fix. It’s our responsibility to work it, get it better.” There’re so many questions here, and I’m looking at all of them, and I’m just trying to see where to go. I’d like to tap you a little bit and your experience, and for you, what keeps you optimistic and what’s the most meaningful thing that you do to inspire and empower others? You’re in a position of leadership on these issues. You are a respected thought leader. How are you doing it? Mohammed Hashim: I would say I’m not doing it too well. In my absolute honesty I feel like I… I don’t know if other people feel this, that you’re constantly faking it in the world. You’re constantly trying to do more than… you’re constantly reaching. And you got a lot of imposter syndrome that’s always happening in a lot of us all the time. So, there’s never a shortage of that in my head space. So, I’m always trying harder than I know how to do otherwise. I mean, I don’t know how to do it any other way but hard. But how am I keeping my optimism? Look, I have kids. I have a two and a half year old daughter who and an 11-year-old son. My son is a complete nerd, so I expect him to be a nerd, but my daughter is going to take over the world. So, I’m just keeping the seat warm, making sure that the world is in a place where she can take over. But also, to be honest, I am also a Muslim. So, for me personally, my faith is important to me. And there’s scripture that says, “With every difficulty comes ease. And with every difficulty comes ease.” God repeats that twice in the Quran. And I firmly believe that, because I’ve gone through a lot of hellish situations in this world, and I’ve always found ease afterwards. And I firmly believe that history always arcs on the side of justice because people are inherently good. And that if we allow this world to be dictated by fear and anger versus hope and being seen, allowing people to be seen for who they actually are and allowing them something to come together to create hope in, there’s two options. And I don’t like the rabbit hole because it just doesn’t get you anywhere. So I choose hope. Elizabeth McIsaac: Great answer. Our audience are non-profits, leaders in non-profits, people who work in the non-profit sector often very much already here in some of the conversations that we’re having. But a number of questions around what is the role of non-profits in bridging this polarization, in being part of this solution and both as organizations, as individual leaders in them? Are we putting this on their shoulders? I don’t think it’s on their shoulders alone, but they’re part of the answer in all of this. So do you see a particular role for them? Mohammed Hashim: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I think that… And please don’t take this as a criticism, but I also see nonprofits always trying to just protect the funding sources that they have and eating at each other. I’m sorry to say that. Elizabeth McIsaac: It happens, but that is a culture of scarcity. That’s what happens when you set up an environment that is based in scarcity. Mohammed Hashim: I don’t disagree, and I see that all the time, particularly in moments when things are looking like they’re going to pull back. It’s already happening. I see it, it’s distressful. I know it’s problematic, but I think that the convening power of nonprofits is massive, is massive. I think that there’s a fear that nonprofits have in terms of having spicier conversations. And that’s true, they got to mitigate the fears that they have with the powers that be at the time that they’re in because those are there. But, I think that there needs to be better political strategy engaged and going further strategically versus not doing anything and hoping to God that it’s going to survive afterwards. So there is that power of community. I do this with leaders across this country where I’m constantly calling them to say like, “Hey, what’s happening on this? I want to give you an update on that.” And it’s almost the end of Black History Month, and I’m still waiting for Canada’s Black justice strategy to come out. I’m hoping it comes out sooner than later, but it’s been in the development for years. And I’ve said this again and again that I think that if we don’t get it out now, it might be 20 years before we get a national action plan on Black Canadian justice and the justice system’s responsibility to Black Canadians. And I think that there are moments where nonprofits have to see the common values and find those opportunities. They engage with power brokers or governments collectively if it’s too scary to go in alone. But I also think that the opportunity to mobilize on the grassroots and as a space that they have far greater access to than anybody else does. Elizabeth McIsaac: I agree. And I’d like to test your thoughts on ability to build conversations deep in community. So, you have your usual constituency, which is perhaps part of your echo chamber, but communities are more diverse than that, and we don’t always cut across to the others. I recently had a conversation with somebody about the power of resident associations, which we sometimes think or assume are going to be advocates of a NIMBYist type perspective. Not necessarily, and that’s prejudging and it’s unfair. Building those bridges and those conversations — going back to your earlier point, about getting offline and getting into conversations — may feel difficult at first, but is there a door to open there and is there something to be done there? And are nonprofits well positioned to be actors in that space? Mohammed Hashim: Look, I firmly believe that traditional lines of allyship and solidarity are out the window. The coalition of the willing or the coalition that is going to fight for what tomorrow looks like is not going to look like the union progressive circles only. I’ve run the show for a long time. I was part of that house. I get it. That’s not where it’s all going to come from. Find voices online on LinkedIn who put up thoughtful things and say, “Hey, can I get 50 minutes on a conversation online with you?” Just to build new networks. And just intentionally try to say, “Okay, here’s four people over the next six months I’m going to try to engage with online. I really appreciate what they say. And if they give me 15 minutes of their time three months from now, great, I’ll take it. I just want to learn something and give them something.” So just being very practical about trying to figure out what the next coalition for you individually looks like is important. And that is an active act versus waiting for it to fall in your lap. Elizabeth McIsaac: We’re almost at the two o’clock mark. I’m going to give you the last word. Where you have a couple of hundred people all anxiously thinking about, “What do we do under threat?” People are fatigued by what’s happening around them, feeling under attack. If you have a couple of words of advice. Mohammed Hashim: Fa inna ma’al-‘usri yusran, which is, with every difficulty comes ease. And with every difficulty comes ease. I firmly believe to be the case. So I hold onto that thread with all my life because you need to have hope. To be honest no one wants to waste a good crisis. There’s got to be opportunity in every angle of this thing. If we’re going to figure out how to play, we got to play harder than they play. And if we’re going to figure out how to win, we got to win. And if we don’t play, we’re not going to win. So I just think that there’s an enormous amount of opportunity that now exists in the space with high polarity that yes, are we going to get beat down? Yes, it’s going to get harder. Yes, is it going to be more difficult to push and prod? Absolutely, all true. But if we don’t, what do we end up with? What we end up with is a lot worse than where we’re at today and no opportunity to build from there. So we got to fight and that’s the space that we have to curate. Elizabeth McIsaac: Thank you. Lots of wisdom in there, lots of experience, and I appreciate your thoughtful presentation and comments and engagement on this. So thank you, Mohammed.