Five Good Ideas for being inclusive of Indigenous Peoples

This transcript was lightly edited for length and clarity. Elizabeth McIsaac: The question of how to connect with Indigenous communities can be a sensitive one, and while Bob keeps it simple, it may not be easy. He’s a terrific ambassador and teacher and in this time of truth and reconciliation, the work he’s doing is invaluable. We are pleased to have him join us with us today. So Bob, welcome to Five Good Ideas and it’s really nice to see you again. Bob Goulais: Miigwetch, Elizabeth. Thanks so much. We’re going to begin by talking about this, the actual five good ideas. Five good ideas being what this podcast is all about, of being inclusive of Indigenous peoples. And I did see some of the questions that came forward, and I can lump a good number of those questions into looking at things from a different perspective. Looking at things from a First Nations, Métis Inuit perspective. So it means more than just five good ideas, it means naanin mno naagadawenim wiiji kina Anishinaabeg, five good ideas about working together with Anishinaabe. And this word Anishinaabe doesn’t refer just to Anishinaabe, doesn’t refer to the Ojibwe-speaking peoples of this territory, but for all Indigenous peoples. That’s truly where that word comes from. So going to start from the very basics of understanding things from a cultural perspective in a different way. Starts with that very first word, and I’m going to share that is boozho, our formal word of greetings. People think we’re trying to speak French when we say boozho, but it’s very different from bonjour. It’s the name of our very first ancestor. I’m going to be speaking about that. Going to start with an Anishinaabe traditional protocol introduction, and these are part of those protocols of cultural competency. If you’re going to be working with First Nations, Métis Inuit, to use our language is to use those things that we use. Begins by offering my name and that is Mzhaakwat n’dizhnikaaz. My name is Clear Sky, that place in the cloud world where this world intersects the spirit realm. Migizi n’dodem, of the Bald Eagle clan. That’s my family. Ktiganiing n’doonjibaa, means I’m from Garden Village. Nbisiing Anishinaabe n’dow, I am Nipissing First Nation. I am Nibissing Anishinaabe. I am not Aboriginal. I am not Indigenous. I don’t even particularly identify with being First Nation. I am very, very proud to be Nibissing Anishinaabe, and that’s part of those protocols that we need to understand, that we are Nations, we’ve always been Nations, and it’s important to acknowledge that early. I come from Nbisiing. There’s a beautiful photo on the French River, which is the river that is associated with our beautiful lake. And nibi is our word for water, Anishinaabe word for water. Nbisiing is the diminutive form of that word. Nbisiing literally means the small water. And if you look at the map, if you’re go on Google Maps and see Lake Nipissing, it is far smaller than the neighbouring Great Lake. So I’m from that place called the small water, Nbisiing. When we’re done our protocols, when we’re done our acknowledgments, our invocation, we use the word miigwetch, which is our thank you. So there’s your Anishinaabe language lesson of the day. About me, as I mentioned, I’m very proudly Anishinaabe from Nipissing First Nation. I’m a traditional teacher. I’m of the second degree of the Three Fires Midewiwin Society. Professionally, I’ve worked at the highest levels of First Nations politics. I’ve also worked in the provincial government and provided service as a consultant to the municipal sector. Most importantly, I’ve provided cultural competency training to over 8,000 people over the last 20 years. First Good Idea All right, let’s talk about these ideas. Bezhig is our word for one. Be values-based in everything you do, especially in your interactions with First Nations, Métis, and Inuit. It’s important to ground yourself in everything you do with your values. And I know we understand corporate values, they’re in our corporate statements somewhere, but what I’m talking about is First Nation values, Métis, Inuit values. My key values in working with First Nations, Métis, and Inuit are right there: be respectful, meaningful, and collaborative at all times. If we’re working with First Nation or a Métis council, they are going to determine whether I’m being respectful, meaningful, and collaborative. And if they’re not, I say, make sure you refocus me. Make sure you let us know and we’ll readjust. Most of all, consider integrating Indigenous values and ways of being. I see a few questions previously that asked, “How do we incorporate Indigenous ways of thinking without being insulting of Indigenous cultures?” It’s to do that in a way that really shows awareness of our culture, history, ways of life. Offering tobacco is an important protocol in our ways of knowing and being as First Nations. Anytime you’re going to begin something, you’re asking something of an elder to do an opening invocation, offering that tobacco to that singer. Use those ways of knowing and being in our processes. Tobacco is our most important medicine. It was given to us at the time of creation to help us and guide us. There was a time when that very first Anishinaabe was so close to the Creator that he just couldn’t leave the creator’s side, and it was the Creator that gave him that beautiful gift of tobacco. Anytime we need to reconnect to the spirit all we need to do is offer that tobacco. Anytime we want to ask something of someone, that elder perhaps, to offer an opening or a drummer to offer that opening drum song, we use that tobacco. So important in terms of protocol. Our seven grandfather teachings are specific to the Anishinaabe, but they’re so well known they’ve been used by many other Nations to help really ground us in our traditional values. The most important one is respect. Second Good Idea Idea number two. “Niizh” is our word for number two. Involve First Nations Métis and Inuit. Consider co-development, collaboration, and partnerships whenever possible. This advice is something you can take to the bank. Be relationship-focused rather than project-focused. I met with a new client this morning. I said, I know there’s performative reasons why you want to work with First Nations. You want to discharge a duty to consult, you want to move forward on a project, and you want to communicate project ideas and get some feedback about your objectives. My advice is to develop those relationships first. Spend some time doing that. The worst thing is when somebody calls me in a panic that they’ve been assigned by their project manager to develop an engagement plan, meet with First Nations about this fairly controversial project, and they’ve got six weeks to do it. Doesn’t put anybody in a good situation. Develop those relationships before you need them. When it comes to working and involving First Nations, Métis Inuit consider how we co-develop those things. Consider things like memoranda of understanding or non-binding arrangements. Those kinds of relationship agreements are important, and co-develop work plans. One of the things that makes a lot of what I say and my training different is I do focus on the importance of co-developing these things and co-creating them with First Nations, Métis, Inuit. One of the things I do also teach about is something I call a pathway to transformation. This starts to open things up in incorporating reconciliation in this process, and it involves three individual concepts. The first being decolonization — the process of actively critiquing these colonial elements. Anytime you’re working from the page in English, you’re colonized. Anytime you’re working from a particular timeframe, that’s a colonial means of thinking. So how do we look at these and how do we decolonize these things? So the question I often ask is, what am I doing that may be colonial in nature? Leading to that is indigenization — to rethink, retool, and remake these elements, again through co-development. I’ll encourage my clients to ask, “How do we actively involve and collaborate and partner with First Nations, Métis Inuit, in your project, in your activities?” Both of those are an important part of reconciliation, the process of restoring balance and righting those historical wrongs. And the question I’ll really encourage people to answer is, “How do we advance reconciliation together?” Again, a lot of the questions I see are, “How do we do this? How does my company, how does our government agency do this?” Third Good Idea We do those things together, which leads us to n’swe, idea number three. “N’swe” is our word for ideas. Consider developing a reconciliation action plan. They’ve been all the rage since reconciliation came out, but we need to start looking at what that means when it comes to being inclusive. Partnering, involving First Nations, Métis Inuit. So consider developing an action plan that’s inclusive of Indigenous peoples. I led the development of the Rainbow District School Board reconciliation action plan a while back. It began in 2019, going to 2024. But that was done, again, with the communities, involving those First Nations, Métis, Inuit in the Sudbury district on Manitoulin Island, working with Indigenous students to be a part of that. So the engagement process in developing this action plan was really integral to making that a successful document. But one of the things I’m very proud of is the reconciliation action plan I developed for the City of Toronto, which was passed in April, 2022, guiding the city’s movement towards this pathway to transformation. In the reconciliation action plan, action number one is to conduct citywide reconciliation audits. This is the City of Toronto’s chosen means of decolonization and indigenization. Their Indigenous Affairs office will play a key role in bringing together the community, creating a bit of a reconciliation audit tool kit. Again, co-developed with First Nations, Métis, Inuit. And then, one by one, through all of the city divisions, they’ll go through those processes where they identify those policies, programs, and processes that creates systemic barriers. Again, that’s the examination, the critique. That’s decolonization. And then indigenization, to revise and co-develop new policies, programs, and processes with First Nations Métis. So it’s starting to see the light of day, it’s starting to see and guide a lot of our policy and movement forward. In your reconciliation action plan, I encourage you to state your commitment. If you are truly committed to allyship, to working in support of reconciliation, state that very early on. Secondly, have a vision. What does your reconciliation action plan look like? What is the result of that? It’ll look 10 years into the future, 20 years into the future. And what do those collaborations, involvements, partnerships look like in terms of vision? You want to include that in your reconciliation Action plan. Definitely be grounded in truth, be grounded in values and cultural competency. What does it mean to be grounded in truth? Well, back when the Truth and Reconciliation Commission issued their final report in 2015, there were many politicians that were just giddy. They were just so happy to see this report being delivered, and they were so quick to develop news releases. You could search them to this day where they’re glad-handing, doing photo ops with the local First Nations leader, local folks at the Friendship centers, really celebrating truth and reconciliation. I think a lot of them missed this point. They wanted to hurry to developing those reconciliation action plans, to do something called reconciliation action, reconcilaction, I don’t know what the hybrid there is, without truly understanding that truth has to come first. And that truth is a very difficult conversation to recognize that this country, the history that we know of Canada, isn’t what we were taught in school. That we need to look at those histories from First Nations, Métis, Inuit perspectives, from the truth according to residential school survivors, Sixties Scoop survivors, surviving families of missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls. We need to be grounded in that truth before we can truly appreciate that reconciliation must move forward. Until then, it becomes just the political issue of the day. There’s some political parties that support reconciliation, others don’t, and the reason is we’re not yet grounded in truth as a society. Consider a framework grounded in the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. This is something that’s consistent with call-to-action number 43. Be grounded in the 10 principles of truth and reconciliation from the TRC. Look at those if you don’t know what those 10 principles are. And, of course, ground your reconciliation action plan in those calls to action. Which reconciliation call to action are you looking to address and how are you going to do that? Make that a part of your reconciliation action plan. Have measurable and achievable goals and actions in your work, and then ensure your plan is co-developed with First Nations, Métis, Inuit. How do we truly involve First Nations, Métis, Inuit in the development of those plans? Ask yourself those questions. It’s truly important. Fourth Good Idea Niiwin, idea number four, and “niiwin” is our word for number four. Take cultural competency or cultural safety training and, above all, commit to lifelong learning about First Nations, Métis, Inuit. I’m not a very good salesperson, marketing person, but this is what I do for a living. I’ve trained, as was mentioned, over 8,000 people in private sector, public sector organizations, going back 20, 25 years, maybe a bit more. Hard to remember, because there is so much to learn. From those protocols, I tell my clients that it’s not me that’s going to be offering tobacco on your behalf. I tell my clients that you need to know what tobacco is, what it’s for, and how to use it, and how to use that in a respectful way. And I say if you don’t know how to make a tobacco tie, YouTube’s your best friend. Using tobacco, smudging, using the sharing circle. I don’t know how many projects, planning projects, commemoration, park development projects we’ve done in the City of Toronto for a long, long time. We do a lot of those things using the sharing circle. And I’ve encouraged, instead of these community meetings where somebody has the soapbox and you’re hearing from two or three people throughout the evening, why don’t you try doing a sharing circle where everybody gets a chance to use the talking stick, everybody gets the chance to speak equally in that circle. One of the questions I ask is, “How do I make the land acknowledgement more meaningful?” Well, the key to that is being personal and being meaningful, that the last thing you want to do is write down and publish your land acknowledgement. I often get clients that want to contract me just to develop their land acknowledgement, and I tell them in a gentle way, I don’t do that. I don’t believe in using colonial words, in colonial language, in English, to identify which First Nations you’re going to honour, which treaties you’re going to acknowledge, because you’re not going to please everyone. You’re going to, inevitably, leave something out, leave some history out. May not acknowledge those pre-confederation treaties. There’s some areas of the country that don’t have treaties. So your land acknowledgement should come from the heart. It should come from that personal, meaningful place from the spirit. Time immemorial, our Nations, our confederacies. We need to know what Nations are in the territory, what confederacies they were a part of. Talking about that old, early colonial history. That’s where we start to get into those difficult conversations. Treaties and treaty making, the inequities under the treaties. First Nations today have access to less than 2% of all lands in Canada, and they benefited very little from the treaties. One of the first times I did cultural competency training, I had a teacher of mine, Morris Switzer. He is really great at what he does. The first thing he’d ask is, he’d ask an audience like this, “How many people here have treaty rights?” And there might be a few First Nations people in the background, meekly putting up their hand. The truth of the matter is non-Indigenous Canadians and the Crown have benefited greater from the treaties and have far more treaty rights than First Nations ever had. So, so important to acknowledge those inequities. The Indian Act. Residential schools. The Sixties Scoop. This was government policy. The assimilation of First Nations people. It wasn’t something that was covert or done behind closed doors. This was an overt attempt at assimilating an entire people. So much to work, and being trauma-informed. And these are just a few subjects from my own course that I offer, called Truth and Reconciliation: Indigenous Cultural Competency Training. There’s just so much to learn from working with First Nations, Métis, Inuit. Community engagements, being effective in that, working with rights holders, treaty rights holders, working with urban Indigenous communities, and relationship building. So all I can do is share a little bit of what I know and how I can share that. Take that cultural competency training. If it’s not from me, maybe it’s from Indigenous Corporate Training, led by Bob Joseph in British Columbia. He’s the guru and I can’t fault you for working with others. A little bit of advice on cultural training is make sure that it’s culturally-based. Again, I belong to the Three Fires Midewiwin Society, but I also have a lifelong experience in working with chiefs, First Nation organizations, national Indigenous organizations. So make sure you’re getting good people that can provide you that support. Ensure your training fulfills the intent of the TRC’s calls to action. Ensure your training is provided by an experienced First Nations, Métis, or Inuk trainer, with lived experience. You don’t want to be learning these things from people that don’t have those experiences. Ensure your training, again, does include cultural training, protocols, our values, Indigenous ways of knowing and being. There’s so much that the world can benefit, that Canada can benefit, that many of you can benefit, from exploring Indigenous ways of knowing and being, including elders and knowledge holders in this work. Ensure your training is safe and non-judgmental for all learners. And that’s something that I’ve been told I’m known to do is, make sure people feel safe in asking their questions. Doing it in a kind way, ensuring that respect is first and foremost, and that’s how I deliver that. So it’s so important. Fifth Good Idea Idea number five. “Naanin” is our word for five. Consider personal, sustained action as an ally to First Nations, Métis, Inuit. And what do I mean by personal sustained action? I regularly work with the public sector and inevitably, people are required to go to my course. They may have made it required learning. And what I say to them is, your employer can make this a condition of your employment, but they can’t tell you what to believe. That has to be a personal choice. For those of you who’ve come here, you’ve come here hopefully under your own volition. It’s a personal choice to be an ally to First Nations, Métis, Inuit. So what does that mean? Personal means you, it means me, means all of us. Sustained means it’s ongoing, it’s consistent, and continuing for a long time. Action is obviously doing something, typically to achieve an aim. So support Indigenous peoples as an ally through personal, sustained action. What is an ally? Well, I’ve had a few definitions that I make use of in a lot of my work. Number one I really like is to disrupt oppressive spaces. If you are in an oppressive space, sometimes it’s very clear to you. You need to do something about that. Disrupting doesn’t mean to do it in a violent or an aggressive manner. Use our words, which leads to the second part, is to help educate. Help educate others on the histories and the realities faced by First Nations, Métis, Inuit. Help educate people on the realities of the Indian Act and those colonial processes. Help break down those barriers. Of course, act. Again, back to personal, sustained action, means you need to act, you need to call something in if you see something is wrong. If that doesn’t work, then you may need to call something out. You need to speak out when you see something that’s wrong. Be anti-racist. It’s not just enough to not be racist. If you see racism, you hear racism, systemic, overt forms of racist, somebody telling a story, be anti-racist and speak out and act. Be an ally in that way. Use your own spheres of influence. And one of the questions I often get from, especially public servants is, “What do I do as a coordinator in my unit or just a manager in this? Not particularly specific on working with First Nations, Métis Inuit.” I’ll say use your own spheres of influence. It’s as simple as taking this message that you heard today and talking about it with your family tonight at the dinner table, talking about it and listening, and the importance of how do we include First Nations, Métis, Inuit in the things that we’re doing. Use your own spheres of influence. Some of you might be managers and directors where you work, some of you might be corporate directors, and you’ll have that chance to influence change. Organizational change, you might run for public office or have been a part of public office and you still have that influence. Use those spheres of influence as you do this. The last thing before I turn it over to our co-host is to just plug these resources that I shared. I’m sharing my own personal reconciliation resource list with you. It was previously called the Reconciliation Reading List until I realized that there’s a few more things than just reading in there. There might be some videos and whatnot. So do check that out. You’ll have the link in the one-page sheet there. My second resource is those 94 calls to action. Get to know those calls to action. If you haven’t read them in a while, dust them off, get to know those. Make sure that your future reconciliation action plan is grounded in those calls. Make sure we know what the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples is. That’s a foundational document, passed in 2007. I was happy there have been a party to witnessing the development of that and all the good work that went into that. I also share something called the Indigenous Ally Toolkit that’s developed by the Montreal Urban Aboriginal Strategy Network, and I give all the credit to them. There’s some definitions in there, some clear actions. If you want to see that reconciliation action plan from the City of Toronto, I’ve included a link in there for you to take a look at. Which leads to my final miigwetch, which is our, again, our word for thank you, and a little bit more of my information on how to contact me and how to reach out. So I’m going to turn it over, back and to Elizabeth, to engage in the dialogue and answer some of your questions. Q & A Elizabeth McIsaac: Miigwetch. That was terrific. And that, actually, was one of the first questions somebody asked, which was, “Is it okay for non-Indigenous people to say things like miigwetch or does that cause offense?” Bob Goulais: Definitely. Using our language honours us in a good way. So one of the things, and again, a lot of people, “Well, is this really practical? Do I need to study this?” I have some clients that will do their protocol introduction, the Anishinaabe protocol introduction in the language. Can you imagine what it means when you get in front of a First Nation audience or in front of a chief and council, and you’re introducing yourself in the language? And we’re talking non-Indigenous people doing that. So definitely, make use of our protocols, offer that tobacco, take part in the smudge ceremony. I’m not saying light up your own smudge and bring your own smudge kit. If that helps you and you do that in your own home, that’s fine. But yeah, definitely defer to knowledge holders, ceremonial leaders to do that, but take part in that. And the last thing want to see is people saying, “Oh no, I don’t want to do that. That’s offensive to me.” All of a sudden, you’ve put off the people you’re working with, so definitely take part in that. Elizabeth McIsaac: You talked a lot about relationship, and I think a number of people in organizations want to connect with Indigenous communities around them. And then they come and say, “How do I get started? How do I begin to build that relationship so that it’s not transactional, so that it’s not about a grant deadline, but rather, by the time we’re ready to put in a grant, we actually have a relationship. But how do I get started?” Bob Goulais: It takes time. Develop those relationships before you need them. Make them relationship-focused rather than project-focused, and that takes some time. The call I had this morning, I advise doing that at the staff level. So you have a project lead, I would say identify an Indigenous engagement lead in your community that is in it for the long haul. One of the biggest challenges in the colonial world is we’re upward movers, people getting promoted and moving out of different projects. And frankly, as First Nations people, we tend to be here for a long, long time. The chief from a particular first Nation’s probably been through that process a long, long time. So relationships are about people. So it’s making those introductions and taking the time to do that. Get good advice when you’re developing relationships. If you have a consultant you can call upon to provide that advice, definitely do that. It’s not very successful if you’re doing cold calling when you don’t know anybody. Spend time in that personal way and take the time to do that. I call it the three cups of tea, Elizabeth. That first cup of tea, you spend some time getting to know that person. They get to know your organization, what you’re about. Second cup of tea, you’re a little bit more comfortable. You got a bit of a process going. You’ve met a few times. It’s only in the third cup of tea where you’re going to say, “Hey, I’ve got this grant deadline and we’d like you to be a party to that. We want this paper for you to take a look at and provide advice on.” It’s going to take some time to get to that point, so take the time to do that. Again, one of the answers from the questions is, “How do I know something’s colonial?” Soon as you put a timeframe on something, you’ve effectively colonized it. And I know that’s tough for big billion, million-dollar projects where those timeframes are important and regulatory approvals are important, but it may not work for First Nations, Métis, Inuit. Elizabeth McIsaac: And it might be that by the fifth, sixth or seventh cup of tea that you’re able to actually speak really honestly about what’s challenging in the relationship, because it takes a while before you get to that level of honesty. Bob Goulais: One of the clients I have, Elizabeth, and I had for a long time, the single best event in the community is they have no purpose for it other than just to maintain relationships. They’ve got the swag that’s put out, they’ve got the information tables. Sometimes there’s a presentation, but usually, it’s just about building relationships. And it’s the single most subscribed to and attended event in that particular First Nation. The reason why is the First Nation provides buckets of Kentucky Fried Chicken for the entire community, and there’s hundreds and hundreds of people that come to that event. It’s been talked about now for a generation. It’s really beautiful to see. I’m not advocating fast food, but it’s about developing that relationship where First Nations can count on that. Know that those processes are there. Elizabeth McIsaac: Well, if there’s a bucket of chicken involved, that’s going to draw some relationships. All of our communities have challenges, tensions, levels of being a little fractious at times. I mean that across the gamut, all communities. And so, as we navigate and try to build relationships into the Indigenous communities, I think what you’re saying also is spend the time, you’re not going to figure it out and have it mapped out. You actually have to get to know people and understand it. Bob Goulais: A client of mine wants to develop an Indigenous engagement strategy. It’s great that corporations want to create this strategy. They want to put it on their website and outline all of their values and show a good foot forward. But sometimes, when it comes to specific types of business transactions, relationships, developing those specific arrangements with First Nations Métis and Inuit communities is invaluable. That’s where I advocate memoranda of understanding. Develop those very simple, non-binding agreements where you’re defining the relationship process. You’re defining those key milestones if you need them. You’re defining how you might contribute to the capacity of First Nations. Just be aware that First Nations, Métis, and Inuit have been inundated by these kinds of consultation processes. It’s leading to something called consultation fatigue. In some cases, you might need to develop that capacity to make sure that’s a part of your project budgets where you’re contributing to that. Well, you can put that in individual agreements and arrangements. When it comes to meeting a duty to consult or meeting the requirements of the regulator or the provincial federal government environmental assessments, if you’re demonstrating that you’ve got a strategic document in front of you, the First Nations has agreed to this, you’re going beyond the duty to consult, which is an important key message that I share. The duty to consult should be seen as a bare minimum, and we should all be working towards going beyond that duty to consult. I’ll give you an example here, Elizabeth, in Toronto. If you’re going to be developing a project it needs to meet what’s called the Duty to Consult. For those who might not know, the Supreme Court of Canada has defined the duty to consult. If the Crown, if a government approval process contemplates activity that might adversely impact Aboriginal and treaty rights, there is a legal duty to consult. That consulting has to do with the rights holders in the territory. In Toronto, the Métis don’t carry land-based rights. Inuit don’t carry land-based rights. I’ll even go so far to say that urban-based Indigenous people that live, play and work here don’t necessarily have the rights that are prescribed in treaty rights and Aboriginal rights in a lot of those court cases. But to go beyond the duty to consult means we should be having conversations with Métis in Toronto. We should be having conversations with Inuit that are here. We should be having conversations with urban-based Indigenous communities, and we’re talking a great diversity of Indigenous communities in the urban centers. We need to move beyond the duty to consult if we’re going to be doing things in a good way, rather than just what federal government and the regulator tells us that we need to do. Elizabeth McIsaac: I’m going to read this one directly. “Miigwetch for educating us, Bob. Very informative. I help to develop public policy. As a supplement to co-development or consulting, it can be very helpful to include empirical evidence in policy proposals. Do you have suggestions or advice on how best to find research evidence that doesn’t further support colonial narratives or systemic racism?” Bob Goulais: That’s such a challenging question. I worked for the Union of Ontario Indians, who was a key proponent in creating a suite of new First Nation-based Crown corporations back in the 2000s. One of them was called the First Nation Statistical Institute, where we wanted to create a First Nation-led organization that had a chief statistician, that had researchers with the ability to take and find evidence, and make that available for policymakers. Unfortunately, one of the governments wasn’t quite there yet and decided that wasn’t important, and they’re going to cancel that. We need to find and get to a place where we recognize that First Nations need to provide this for ourselves. There’s a principle called the OCAP Principle about data management. That’s something I encourage you to take a look at. And it talks about the ownership, control, access, and protection of First Nations data. So, if you’re going to be developing your own tools, your own surveys, those sorts of things, make sure you understand what those OCAP principles are. And my best piece of advice is include First Nations. Talk to those First Nation organizations that might be able to help you. If you’re in the social sector, work with those social-facing agencies. If you’re in the lands and resources sector, there’s so many different agencies that might be able to support you in there. I work actively with the Indigenous Centre for Cumulative Effects, a fairly new national organization that works specifically in that environmental space, studying cumulative effects. So there are different agencies to look for and to work with. The challenge is to find those that might work best for you. Elizabeth McIsaac: I look at the numbers on this session today and how many people will probably watch and pass this along afterward. For everyone, there’s a real sense of, “We’re compelled. Let’s figure out how to do reconciliation better, authentically, with good relationships.” Do you have examples of where it has been done particularly well and respectfully? Bob Goulais: I wish I could say we’ve seen those examples. I used to say that reconciliation’s fairly new, but we’re going upon 10 years since the report. Have we truly done everything we need to support reconciliation, to make the change in society? And we haven’t quite got there yet. So I’ve been working with the City of Toronto for a number of years and we’re not quite there yet. They’re still looking at implementing a lot of those strategies. A lot of the successes are at the smaller level. There’s nearly 500 people in the room here today that may have a few of those ideas that might work well with them. I’ll give you a couple examples. I work with a local university that was developing a land use plan, and to really look at things from beyond just the policy perspective and the needs of the university and the growth of the university. A lot of that was fed by the growth plan here in Ontario, but recognizing the importance of the need to understand Indigenous traditional knowledge. How do First Nations, Métis, Inuit use the land in these territories? How do we ensure that First Nations have continued access to the land for ceremony, for harvesting, for medicines, to look at things like watersheds and watershed management and understanding the importance of wild rice harvesting, which grows on the water, the medicines that grow in those wetlands? Of course, what’s important is the wildlife, but our people use those things. So this particular university decided this is important that we need to study that aspect of Indigenous traditional knowledge. And that’s been going on in some places out west. For those of you who are Western-based, a lot of those studies are required when we’re looking at treaty land entitlements and land claims, those sorts of things. But here in this territory, especially in southern Ontario, it’s not very much of a consideration. So that particular university decided that we need to look at traditional knowledge was beautiful, so that’s great. I’ll hold up the City of Toronto in one of their master plan projects. They created what I call the Cadillac of community engagement, which is meeting with every single one of the First Nation rights holders in this territory multiple times. Anytime they needed a meeting, we would make sure that there’s the ability to meet. We met with the Métis Council. We met with the local Inuit organization. We created a very comprehensive engagement plan, which involved focus groups of elders, youth, women, two-spirit peoples, and all of that contributing to what is a master plan that actually’s going to have a lot of Indigenous-focused content. And not just Indigenous lens, but actually Indigenous design principles, Indigenous place-keeping opportunities, the co-management of a pretty significant park in Toronto. We’re going to be talking about co-managing part of this park with First Nations. It’s an incredible thing to see. So again, we’re still in the planning phases. Implementation is still another step to happen, but again, I’m hopeful. Elizabeth McIsaac: Sometimes conversations around DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion, are used to just collapse everything into that conversation. And I think there’s a legitimate critique that that can erase the specificity of Indigenous communities and their relationship, because they’re not a stakeholder. They are other nations. It’s an entirely different way of thinking. Do you have advice? Because many of us have small organizations and then we’re collapsing it all. And how do we avoid that and should we avoid it? Bob Goulais: When clients approach me and want some advice on how do we integrate diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, and how do we start to get a foothold on reconciliation? They’re two different things. Diversity, inclusion, equity, and belonging is still important. So I’m not saying neglect that. So you don’t develop your plan, again, co-develop those pieces. You’re not going to be developing equity, inclusion with the disability community without their input. So you’re going to be spending some time with First Nations, Métis Inuit on that diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging piece. But reconciliation is something different altogether. It’s about restoring the balance, righting those historical wrongs, educating ourselves, being grounded in truth, and implementing those calls to action, those principles of truth and reconciliation. It’s a different thing. We tend to put it into one, what we think is something that makes sense and might be efficient. And again, many of you, as you say, Elizabeth, have smaller organizations, may need to make use of the resources you have. But definitely make sure you separate those and make sure that we know what one is and what the other is, that reconciliation is not necessarily about diversity, equity, inclusion. Second thing is when it comes to working with First Nations, Métis Inuit is, we should be looking to bring people, like elders, into this work. Again, I mentioned earlier the importance of elders’ knowledge ceremony in these processes. Those can only be led by elders. They need to be provided an opportunity to be a part of that. Elizabeth McIsaac: And note that, too, is something you plan for. You plan for it in terms of timelines and availability. Many elders are very tapped. There’s a lot of demand now. And so, you need relationship to make that happen. So all those things that you’re talking about come together in making that possible and enabling it. Bob Goulais: And resources. Again, you know- Elizabeth McIsaac: And money. Bob Goulais: … lot of people feel that, “Oh, this is important for me, but we don’t have a budget for that. It’s been tapped out, so we’re going to do our best.” You’re not really doing your best unless you actually invest into that. And I feel for smaller organizations that may not have the resources and the revenue to be able to do that. But to include elders, and the answer I’d have for a few questions that I have in front of me is to develop a working group of First Nations, Métis Inuit. Whether it be a local working group or people that have that knowledge that you’re looking for, you may need to invest in that. Make sure there’s honorariums. We can’t fill up our cars on tobacco. You might need some resources there. So ensure you do that. Last thing is we can’t do decolonization, indigenization, and reconciliation in our own functional groups. Back to the key message of this whole talk is that we need to be inclusive, we need to collaborate, we need to partner with First Nations, Métis, Inuit. You cannot do decolonization in your own organization if there’s no First Nations, Métis, Inuit there. It requires the voice of the community. It’s got to go beyond just a performative means of engagement and communication. We need to actively include elders, knowledge holders, people that make use of our products, services, those sorts of things. So it’s important to be inclusive in those ways too. Elizabeth McIsaac: I think so often we’re in a pattern of wanting to get things done, cross it off the list, onto the next thing. We’re compelled with questions of how do I do that and how do I get it done? Before we came on, you said, “This is about changing the way we think. It’s about changing the way we approach things.” It’s a longterm shift. We didn’t get here in a day, and we’re not undoing it in a day. So I’m hearing a bit of patience and accept that it’s a longterm commitment. Bob Goulais: That’s why I use the term a pathway to transformation. It’s not just change. It’s not just right now. It’s not just this one policy. It’s recognizing that when we develop the next iteration of our engagement policy or our HR policy, that we’re going to be sitting down with First Nations, Métis, Inuit and looking at this right from the start. Whatever the next piece of advice you’re going to need going down the road 10 years from now, that you already know that the vision that you have is to be inclusive, to make sure we co-develop that. Do we have the processes in place to be able to do that, resources to be able to do that? So it is always forward-thinking. Elizabeth McIsaac: Well, and just as we have a firm line in our minds for government relations, we should have one for Indigenous relations. Bob Goulais: Yeah, definitely. For sure. Yeah, I certainly agree with that. Elizabeth McIsaac: Any final words from you? Bob Goulais: Again, my thought is to state your commitment and act on it. And despite all of these challenges, and you are going to face challenges, we’re talking about working with people that have a very finite resource, and not all First Nations are willing to open their doors and work with you. There’s going to be challenges along the way. But again, it starts with the spirit. If we’re putting our best foot forward, we’re doing that in a good way. And that’s really what fuels that relationship when that spirit is there. So make sure you’re grounded in those values, grounded in spirit, grounded in your commitment to action. And I wish you all well with that, and miigwetch for having me. Elizabeth McIsaac: Miigwetch, Bob. And thank you to our audience for attending today and for all your questions. You know that we didn’t get to all of them, but they’re good questions. People, I think, are thinking very hard and meaningfully, and it’s coming from a place of wanting to figure out how to do this right. And so, I think you’ve given us lots and lots of good advice for getting on that pathway.